Last night turned into a great night - but definitely not one I was anticipating. After the church bible study I'm a part of, a bunch of us from the church went out for drinks at a local pub called The Empire. A really good time with some really good discussion on:
*What would it take for American Christians to let go of the American dream and live fully in/for the Kingdom?
*Do we doom our sons to struggles with pornography/lust because while growing up we tell them that they will struggle with it?
*and others...(those were just the two big topics)
Around 10:30pm, we wrapped up and all headed home - for which I was very grateful since I had not slept the night before due to drinking coffee too late in the day and really sore muscles from working out.
As I was sending some emails in my room, two friends call to invite me out to join them. Now, granted, I really wanted to say "no" because my bed was looking really comfy, but one of them had said earlier in the week that he had a religious question for me and then again last night said "I have a religious question/idea that will blow your mind." So, not one to turn down time with friends I enjoy and good, intriguing discussion I headed back out to join up with them at Bar 12 around the corner (first time I'd been there, nice, swanky pub).
Over the following three hours (until the pub kicked us out at 1:30pm) we talked about everything from dissertation topics to seeing the new James Bond movie tomorrow to relationships....and then, for the last couple of hours we talked about Christianity, God, free will, predestination, the problem of evil, different theories on God and the universe, etc. Really, really good conversation and really, really interesting. I have a lot of respect both for the minds of these two friends as well as just the people they are. While I'd love to share all of it with you, here's a view on God and history that they align more with that I had never heard:
God created the world as we know, without humans, initially. Now, because none of the world had free will, it was also predictable. God got bored with this and wanted something more exciting and more interesting, so he decides to make humans. Like the rock God makes that he can't lift, God creates humans with free will and he can't control them or know what they're going to do. [a theme for the night had been that if God knows what we're going to do, that defeats free will; I shared with them the idea of God being outside of time, but they felt like that was a satisfactory explanation]. God creates humans, not knowing what they're going to do, so the entire Old Testament is God figuring out these humans that he's created and that's why he's upset and this really angry God throughout the Old Testament, because he's trying to figure them out and can't. Eventually God decides to send himself (in the form of Jesus, both fully divine and fully human) to experience this humanity that he's created that he doesn't understand. It's through that experience that God realizes how tough it is for man and how difficult this life is - thus why Christ calls out "My God, My God why have you forsaken me" on the cross - because he's identifying with that very human feeling of "where's God". So, Christ dies for us and from that point on, God's this loving, understanding God because he now understands humanity (from having been human), so he's now, in his understanding way, said "Okay, now I get it. You all go on living and, at the end, I'll be here for you."
Mixed in with this is the idea that God does not know the future. At any given moment in time he also knows all the information one can possibly know up that point and at that point (but not the future) - so his all knowingness is limited by time. Now, it's from that point of knowing everything that he makes the best decision he can, but he doesn't know the outcome and can't guarantee it. Their idea was that, because God understands the way the world works, his best decision is all but perfect - but that, somehow, this makes God more understandable because he can make mistakes and mess up. Thus, the problem of pain isn't God's fault, because he did make the best choice he knew how. This is already a long post so I can't get into telling you the interaction back and forth about the response, but it was a really good conversation and helped me understand where they're coming from. The problem of evil/pain/suffering is a huge deal for them, as is human's having free will - and with free will, God not being able to know everything, because if he does then he's just playing games with us.
At the end of the night, I got to share with them my view that I'd rather have a God who is all-powerful, all-knowing who gave man free will as a choice - but in so doing, God self-limited himself from taking away that free will and forcing someone into something. As a result, evil isn't God's work - but rather man exhibiting his free will. As well, that God, because of free will, has given everyman the chance to except a relationship with Him (this was a foundation that we set early in the night, that we all agreed that people have a relationship with God). And, because of free will, many will say "No", but that's their choice, not God's. I don't think it was a convincing argument for them b/c of how big the problem of pain and the seeming dichotomoy of Angry God/Loving God in the OT and NT, but hopefully we'll continue to have conversations where we can interact on those and other issues.
They're forcing me to stretch my mind and think in new ways, which is great and I love it. Not that the way I understand God and the world is completely right, but I do think there's something powerful about a God that's in control (of past, present, future) and yet give's man free will that allows one to live life so much more boldly, and yet at peace because God is in control.
[Side note: another really interesting view on the universe was something they read in the NY Times last year. In the future, we'll be able to create an artificial intelligence world within a computer that is exactly like the world as we know it. Now, with that one world created, it makes sense that 10 of those can be created and 100, 1000, 10000, etc. and up to an infinite number. Against infinity the chances of us being one of those AI created worlds is really good. (my response at this point was that this was a load of crap because computer's are built on logic and decisions, therefore you can't place free will into a computer, logic world. Also, the fact that just because something "could" happen infinite # of times doesn't make something compared to it likely to happen within one of those times). So, in this AI experiment that we are living in - we're like a peetri (sp?) dish in a lab experiment and maybe whatever created us is doing a study on "ethnic conflict" or something - the creator imposed religions into the experiment to watch the conflict and therefore the religious are all true - in the sense that they were all given. So, irregardless of the fact that the religions conflict with one another - the goal of the experiment is ethnic conflict and since religion has led to ethnic conflict, then it's true to the end of the experiment. ]